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James MacDonald and I in Blog Conversation, sort of...

James MacDonald responded in the comment section to the 2nd of my two posts on his hyperbolic Congregational Government is from Satan post. I trust he won't mind me copying it here and responding to it below:

You seem like a pretty funny guy and I like that. You also seem pretty comfortable with overstatement etc. to make your points, I like that too. Yes I can be bombastic at times, does that make me the kettle or the pot? :) My son pointed out your blog to me, Apparently he left a comment and has been following you with appreciation for some time - blog and twitter.

My post had nothing to do with WBC and we surely do trust the Lord in the outcome. There was much division in the church but hardly a word against Harvest's willingness to help when invited. Though we have six campuses only one is a former church that joined with us. We frequently have churches coming to us in their struggle to survive, direct them elsewhere and move on. We have never approached one ourselves, ever. 5000+ churches in North America close every year. I was in a meeting last week with a number of pastors in Chicago trying to discern how best to deal with this crisis in our own city. How do you believe this best handled?

I grew up in a congregational church in London Ontario and my first two churches were congregational. My convictions against that model are not new or recently inflamed. We are working with another church right now on the same issue and learning how best to serve their need while allowing them freedom under whatever system of government they use to determine their own future.

I appreciate celebrity bloggers, I realize you did not gain your level of influence without a lot of hard work and that your passion was probably content related with the greater influence you have coming as an unintended byproduct. I hope you steward your influence well and use it always for the benefit of Christ's great kingdom. Please pray the same for me,

James MacDonald

PS feel free to email me if you want to talk more - maybe God in His sovereignty wants me to have an Arminian friend

James,

Thank you for taking the time to respond here in the midst of what, I'm sure, is an always busy schedule. I've followed your blog for a number of years, cheered with you when you successfully battled cancer, enjoyed a number of your posts - and had my blood pressure raised by others. No doubt as fellow Canadians, our sense of humour (note the correct spelling, eh!) is similar. I'd be the kettle to your pot.

I take you at your word that your post had nothing to do with WBC. Note that I have struck through that text on the previous post and added a link to this one.

Oddly enough, as the former elder of a once thriving / church-planting Baptist church that sits 60 feet from my loft - where now less than four dozen folk attend on an average weekend - I don't disagree with your opinion regarding the congregational model of church governance. But I do believe, in both our cases, it is opinion based on our experiences - rather than a church polity designed by the Enemy or with no support in the Scriptures. (Note that I affirm episcopal governance with the caveat that real discipleship is taking place in that church environment.)

I also stand behind what I said at the end of the first post,

In my never humble opinion, the bottom line problem with the church in the West is not church governance. As I have pontificated here ad nauseum, the problem is discipleship and the lack thereof in the church.

The Great Commission is to “go and make disciples.” It isn’t to build big churches or large platforms for big egos. Nor is it to command and control the congregation for the “sake of the church.” Disciples are made in direct personal relationship with the discipler. If the church was creating actual disciples I wonder whether we would need to worry about church governance.

To answer your question about 5,000 churches closing, I'd point you at my post, More Disciples, Fewer Leaders, Please, where I quote your fellow Chicago import, Scot McKnight. McKnight is responding to a question about what leadership books he'd recommend. He says this,

...I want to put my idea on the line and see where it leads us. We have one leader, and his name is Jesus. I want to bang this home with a quotation from Jesus from Matthew 23, where he seems to be staring at the glow of leadership in the eyes of his disciples, and he does nothing short of deconstructing the glow:

But you are not to be called “Rabbi,” for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth “father,” for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. The greatest among you will be your servant. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

Instead of seeing myself as a leader, I see myself as a follower. Instead of plotting how to lead, I plot how to follow Jesus with others. Instead of seeing myself at the helm of some boat—and mine is small compared to many others—I see myself in the boat, with Jesus at the helm.

Again, in my never humble opinion, the crisis in the church is not leadership; it's discipleship and that is the reason those churches are closing. Watch this video from Chris Wright who says it far better than I ever will - he's being interviewed by my wife and business partner, Imbi Medri:

Later in the More Disciples post, I quote Scot again,

...leadership too often places the pastor or some person in the front and having others be guided (and following) that person, and that, I dare say, distorts the entire gospel. Jesus was willing to say that his followers didn’t have a rabbi of their own, didn’t have a human father in a position of ultimate authority, and they didn’t have an instructor who was their teacher. They had one rabbi and one instructor, and his name was Jesus, and he was Messiah. They had one father, and he was Creator of all. They were to see themselves as brothers, not leaders. That’s straight from the lips of Jesus. [Emphasis Added]

The Celebrity-Driven Church may build big buildings filled with smiling people but as Willow's Reveal study showed, it appears not to build disciples. I'll unpack this more in my upcoming series on the C-DC. My words from the quoted post on disciple making,

How did Jesus make disciples - he lived with them for three years, through thick and thin, through their thick headedness and their moments of great clarity, through their closeness and their rejection of him. He didn't set up a training school for leaders, or preach from an elevated pulpit or bring in Roman business and political leaders to advise his disciples how to lead.

Jesus lived in the midst of his disciples and the impact of that still resonates. Globally.

In closing, a couple of my Calvinist buddies (and I have many who put up with me) thought your "celebrity blogger" line was rather amusing. I confess that it reminded me of Brian McLaren when he called me a "Master Blogger" in response to my critique of his New Kind of Christianity. His was a little more double entendre than yours.

But trust me, as my 20 year old daughter, Kaili said to her mother when she read your comment, "Dad's not a celebrity? He has fewer than 700 500 followers on Twitter." We will all be hearing more about and from that girl. Assuming I don't ground her forever for her impertinence. :-) (And I do have under 700, Kai!)

Please Allow Me to Introduce....

We have a friend who we often refer to as the Forrest Gump of Christianity. Not because he's slow, he isn't remotely. But because he knows the strangest and widest assortment of people on the planet.

When we first met him, we were at a church conference in Dallas. Almost twenty years ago. Our new friend had just moved to the U.S., after having played an active role in the anti-apartheid movement in South Africa. He was almost flat broke, as I remember. Yet, the next day he was off to have lunch with Hilary Clinton. (I don't often talk about my one degree of separation from the Secretary of State. GRIN) Later this friend would be the executive producer on the two Live Worship projects Imbi & I did for Maranatha! Music.

But it isn't MdP I want to introduce you to. It's one of his closest friends. Someone who has had a profound impact on me since we first met in 1996. And even though this man happens to be one of South Africa's finest drummers, that impact is not percussive. (My kids are groaning at that horrid pun.)

Lloyd has been a professional drummer (which he continues to be), a pastor/church leader and the sales manager for a Harley dealership in Jo'burg - after he left "professional pastoring". He's also a gifted thinker/writer and a new blogger worth reading.

His blog is called, The Faithful Skeptic and I love it's tag line, "exhausted from trying always to be right, I have opted towards just trying to be honest."

Oh. His full name is Lloyd Martin - married to the equally gifted Libbi - they are the parents of three fabulous kids.

Let me point you at Lloyd's rather important post, "I Wonder Why?". It fits well with my upcoming series, The Celebrity-Driven Church.

In the church we spend great amounts of money, many other resources and lots of personal energy trying to gather as many as possible to come to us and then to secure their ongoing attendance.  We have ‘membership classes’, ‘orientation groups’, ‘enrollment’ and ‘data capture’ forms that we get people to fill in and return, we initiate ministry, function, or activity groups of all types and try get as many as possible involved in doing things in and for the local church.  Yet the way I read the bible it seems clear to me that Jesus never did any of these things.  He tended to keep moving and mostly seemed to discourage people from following him physically rather than enticing them to join his entourage.  Instead of going to where it was obvious that more people would be he did the opposite.  When expected to zig, he seemed to zag.

I wonder why?

Please read the entire post and comment there. And you might also want to add him to your blog reader. (I highly recommend Reeder as the best way on a Mac to read RSS feeds, by the way.)

(Note that the picture was taken by Imbi, in poor lighting conditions from a great distance back in 2004. And Vic provides us with a one degree of separation to Nelson Mandela - who is far cooler than Hils.)

The Devil's Advocate

I question.

It’s one of those things that many people wish I just wouldn’t do.

“Bill, just leave well enough alone.”

“Don’t stir the pot.”

“What gives you the right to ask questions?” — they question.

Yesterday, in my definitely imitable style, I questioned James MacDonald and his “Congregational Government is From Satan” hyperbolic blog post. And I got some answers I wasn’t expecting. From that post’s comments:

Joe — “You need to know that James wrote that whole rant as a response to recently not getting something he wanted.”
Me — “Hmmm. Intriguing. Do tell”
Joe — “Simply he wanted a certain church. They voted TWICE against it and now he is mad. Thus the comments on how voting is unbiblical and congregational government”

And then later that evening,
Luke MacDonald — ”…Harvest was approached by 5 elders from a church in decline and asked for help. The elders wanted to merge and form an extension campus (whatever anyones thoughts may be on this).

The elders and 72% of the church voted to merge falling shy of the 75% required for such a move. The elders then decided to take another few months and try to vote again. This time I believe the vote was 73%.

that is the basics of the story…”

I wasn’t expecting any of this. I’m not a particular fan of Brother James' church leadership style, though I don’t have any particular axe to grind with him. I found his “Satan post” to be typical of his rather bombastic style and it prompted my response.

However, the comments thread suggests that the Satan Congregation post may well have been a petulant response on Brother James’ part to not gaining control of another church for his Harvest Bible denomination. (Does Harvest have an M&A Department I wonder?)

After Joe’s 2nd comment, I decided to do a little Google wandering. The church whose eldership appears to want to join the Harvest Bible Chapel denomination at this time is Winnetka Bible Church. See this post please.

WBC has a FAQ up about the HBC/WBC “merger”. I find the FAQ both revealing and disturbing.

16. Who will preach at the Winnetka location?
The six current campuses of HBC, worshiping across fifteen identical services, function as one church, with one Elder Board, one overall budget and one Senior Pastor. Most weekends (40+ weekends every year), Pastor James MacDonald preaches live on the two largest campuses (Rolling Meadows and Elgin) with large screen video of that message (either streaming live or recorded on the same weekend) providing the sermon for all other campuses. Occasionally when Pastor James is on a break for study, rest, or outside ministry, HBC uses a combination of live or recorded messages by other HBC Pastors. Frequently, your own Campus Pastor will fill the pulpit in Pastor James’ absence.

23. Will Pastor James MacDonald be preaching in person at WBC?

As we explore the possibility of a merger, Pastor James MacDonald has been invited to preach live at WBC at our invitation, at least once and possibly twice in the next 4-5 weeks. In addition, Pastor Rick Donald will be a guest preacher on Sunday, February 27. Pastor Rick as been the Assistant Senior Pastor at Harvest for 22 years and the current plans have him becoming the Campus Pastor through the transition should this merger be successful.

I never realized that when the HBCD acquires a Chicago-area church, Brother James becomes the disembodied preacher.

And on the issue of how they would discern God's will for WBC

25. What are the Elders of WBC expecting of our membership in this process?
As in all matters of life and ministry, we expect the members of WBC to walk humbly with their God (James 4:6), as we together seek the Lord’s direction in this decision. Multiple opportunities for more information and discussion are coming in the next weeks – please participate in gathering information for an informed decision. In addition, each of the Elders is available to share their heart with you and answer questions you may have. In all of this, we will be a church family that honors the Lord. God’s Word warns against hasty and fleshly plans (Proverbs 21:31), so we need to seek Him in fervent prayer. God’s Word warns us of a real enemy who is a divisive liar (1 Peter 5:8-9; John 8:44). The Elders are determined that unity (Ephesians 4:1) and graciousness of speech (Ephesians 4:29) will characterize our public and private interaction during this process. Any speech which impugns someone’s character or calls their motives into question may result in the restriction of membership privileges in accordance with our bylaws. We are trusting God for a Christ-honoring process and a unified outcome and are excited to go forward together into whatever the Lord directs. [emphasis added]

Thus, A Couple of Questions:

First, assuming all of the above is accurate, as James MacDonald is a Calvinist, and God is sovereign - why would James be upset about a congregational vote not going his way? Twice? I thought James' affirmed that God is sovereign - from a Calvinist perspective, that is. (I'm Arminian in my theology, so my view of God's sovereignity is a little different.) If God wanted James et al to acquire WBC, wouldn't He have made it happen. Or do I still not understand Calvinists' view of God's Sovereignty? And isn't it remotely possible that God has other plans for WBC? Including simply shutting it down?

And secondly, if "biblical" is our criteria for assessment, just exactly how "biblical" is it to build a ministry around one man's preaching and have that one man appear via twinkling pixels before an enthralled (hopefully) audience on a Sunday morning.

To me this is simply another example of what might be called the Celebrity-Driven Church.

Over the course of the next few posts, I'd like to attempt to unpack this "satanic" aberration of church leadership. (And yes, "satanic" is hyperbole.)

Oh, and if the title concerns you, read this for its meaning.

UPDATE: Please read WTH's post on this James MacDonald story.

James MacDonald, Satan, Flip Wilson & Me

Let me just say, right up front, I’m pretty sure the Devil made me write this post. (In fact, he almost made me wright “right” for “write” just to discredit me further. So. All spelling and sintax errors are the devil’s fault.)

William Blake once beautifully asked,

And did the Countenance Divine
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here
Among these dark Satanic mills?

But no rich poetic metaphor from our brother, James MacDonald.

No. For him, simple hyperbolic prose, “Congregational Government is from Satan.”

He advances his argument under the sub-headings, “Congregational Meetings are Forums for Division,” “Voting Is Not Biblical,” “Eldership Is Sometimes Unpopular,” “Congregationalism Crushes Pastors,” and “Priesthood Not Eldership of All Believers.”

And, of course, what “biblical” argument for authoritarian leadership structure would be complete without a quick prooftext shout-out to Hebrews 13:17 - Obey your leaders and submit to them...

Searching his blog, it appears that Brother James is not quick to exegete Mark 10/Matthew 20 - no doubt that whole “servant leadership” thing is so social gospelish.

I have neither the time, nor the inclination to take apart what appears to be a largely proof-texted eisegetical argument on James’ part but perhaps an “…is from Satan” synchroblog might be in order.

Let me suggest some possible titles - all biblically prooftext provable,
The American Megachurch is from Satan.
The Executive/Business Pastor Position is from Satan.
Celebrity Church Leaders are from Satan.
kinnon.tv is from Satan

I’m sure you can come up with more.

In my never humble opinion, the bottom line problem with the church in the West is not church governance. As I have pontificated here ad nauseum, the problem is discipleship and the lack thereof in the church.

The Great Commission is to “go and make disciples.” It isn’t to build big churches or large platforms for big egos. Nor is it to command and control the congregation for the “sake of the church.” Disciples are made in direct personal relationship with the discipler. If the church was creating actual disciples I wonder whether we would need to worry about church governance.

And. Just for the record. In my late middle age, I would have to say that, assuming real discipleship, I'm most comfortable with an episcopacy.

UPDATE: Please read what is effectively Part 2 of this post, The Devil's Advocate.

UPDATE 2 : Please read WTH's post on this James MacDonald story.

_________________________________________________

For further reading of my thoughts on some of what's covered here, you might like (or intensely dislike):
Jesus & MegaChurch Pastors, A Few Questions
Why Aren't Big Name Christian Leaders Decreasing
Confronting Idols & Making Discples (video with Chris Wright) 
More Disciples, Fewer Leaders, Please
More Disciples, Fewer Volunteers, Please
Leaders Lead, Disciples Disciple

Why Do We Allow Toxic Leaders?

In my previous post on this humble corner of the interwebs’ blogiversary, I told a little of my story of experiencing the left foot of fellowship from a megachurch leadership team. That experience has informed some of the discussion on church leadership at kinnon.tv.

Earlier today, Brad Boydston pointed to this interesting post from Joe Hellerman - The Allure of Toxic Leaders.

Hellerman is writing a book on “the use of power and authority in Christian leadership. The provisional title is When Pastors Were Servants: Recapturing Paul’s Cruciform Vision for Authentic Christian Leadership.”

Hellerman states,

The motivation to take on the project came from numbers of students at Talbot, and colleagues in pastoral ministry, who have found themselves on the receiving end of abusive, hurtful leaders. The book will contain, among other things, a series of narratives (well disguised, of course) detailing the various experiences that these men and women have had at the hands of narcissistic, dysfunctional leaders in their churches.

Here is perhaps the most counterintuitive reality I have encountered in the whole process of researching the topic: all but one of the dozen or so abusive local church leaders described in the book are still in their churches, fully in control of the church’s vision, ministry, and staffing.

I don’t find it counterintuitive at all. In fact, a scripture I will return to over the course of a number of posts, 1 Samuel 8 explains exactly what’s going on. The context is Samuel’s response to the people of Israel demanding a king. The Lord responds to Samuel (from The Message)

When Samuel heard their demand—"Give us a king to rule us!"—he was crushed. How awful! Samuel prayed to God.

God answered Samuel, "Go ahead and do what they're asking. They are not rejecting you. They've rejected me as their King. From the day I brought them out of Egypt until this very day they've been behaving like this, leaving me for other gods. And now they're doing it to you. So let them have their own way. But warn them of what they're in for. Tell them the way kings operate, just what they're likely to get from a king."

So Samuel told them, delivered God's warning to the people who were asking him to give them a king. He said, "This is the way the kind of king you're talking about operates. He'll take your sons and make soldiers of them—chariotry, cavalry, infantry, regimented in battalions and squadrons. He'll put some to forced labor on his farms, plowing and harvesting, and others to making either weapons of war or chariots in which he can ride in luxury. He'll put your daughters to work as beauticians and waitresses and cooks. He'll conscript your best fields, vineyards, and orchards and hand them over to his special friends. He'll tax your harvests and vintage to support his extensive bureaucracy. Your prize workers and best animals he'll take for his own use. He'll lay a tax on your flocks and you'll end up no better than slaves. The day will come when you will cry in desperation because of this king you so much want for yourselves. But don't expect God to answer."

But the people wouldn't listen to Samuel. "No!" they said. "We will have a king to rule us! Then we'll be just like all the other nations. Our king will rule us and lead us and fight our battles."

When I was removed from my leadership role at the megachurch (apparently for daring to think the senior leader would live up to promises made), the official position was that I was to be shunned. Staff were told specifically not to speak to me.

A few, in fear, chose to. A number of active volunteers spent time with us - commiserating with us, telling us their own stories of experiencing the autocratic nature of the senior leader. A person who had experienced something virtually identical a year before me made a point of telling me their story, in detail. Yet. To a person, they are all still at this church. Even though our experience has been repeated numerous times with others in the six years since we left. In spite of what these people know to be true about the leadership of this church - and in spite of their own pain experienced at the hands of this leadership, they are still there.

Hellerman says this,

We are apparently attracted to toxic leaders. Psychological dynamics that lead us to rally around such leaders include a subconscious longing for a parental figure later in adult life, the need for security and certainty in an unpredictable world, and a desire to feel chosen or special, as we join together in community with others to support the noble vision of a bigger-than-life leader. We tend to look the other way, where integrity is concerned, if we can find an inspiring, confident leader to satisfy these pressing psychological needs.

At a deeper level, people respond to powerful, charismatic leadership out of a profound longing for a god-like figure in their lives. In religious contexts this person can be a gifted, celebrity pastor who simultaneously serves as both God’s representative and spiritual father to a willing, compliant congregation. Jesus was apparently well aware of this dynamic: ‘Do not call anyone on earth your father, because you have one Father, who is in heaven’ (Matt 23:9). (Emphasis added)

And adds this later when speaking of a New York Times article on Rudy Giuliani’s leadership after 911 where one rabid fan calls him “God.”

Some of our gods turn out to be devils in disguise. This is true of public officials, and it is true of certain pastors in our churches. Yet we continue to tolerate and even encourage strong leaders who clearly misuse their power and authority.

Human leaders have clay feet. That’s why we need more than one of them at a time leading a local church. It is no accident that virtually every church in the New Testament was led by a plurality of elders-pastors. Maybe that’s how Jesus’ earliest followers interpreted his command ‘Do not call anyone on earth your father.’ (Emphasis added.)

I would suggest that we need to highlight the plurality of elders-pastors if we are to spare the church the damage done by the "kings" we've placed over us in far too many churches, of any shape, size or denomination.

I will come back to Hellerman in my future post on the Marlboro Man as a leadership model.

Not Brilliant Personalities - But Faithful Servants

via Jared Wilson

The Church does not need brilliant personalities but faithful servants of Jesus and the brethren . . . Pastoral authority can be attained only by the servant of Jesus who seeks no power of his own, who himself is a brother among brothers to the authority of the Word.   [emphasis added - bk]

-- Dietrich Bonhoeffer

I find this quote particularly helpful in light of the apparent offense I've caused some with my previous post.

Leaders Lead, Disciples Disciple

As I've reread my More Disciples posts along with the recent Leadership posts of Dave Fitch, Geoff Holsclaw and Bob Hyatt as well as Ben Sternke's Volunteers or Bondservants, I've been struck by the rather simplistic thought in the title of this post - Leaders Lead, Disciples Disciple.

The question I want to ask is how many leaders in what we call the church have truly been discipled? And when I say discipled I mean in the manner in which Jesus lived in the midst of, and in intimacy with his disciples.

I know I haven't been discipled like that. Have you?

How can we expect to raise up disciples when few of us have actually experienced being discipled?

What has been modelled is that leaders lead. I'm bold (or stupid) enough to suggest that that happens whether the church claims to be missional or attractional.

But I'm convinced what the Body of Christ needs are disciples who disciple rather than leaders who lead.

Thoughts?

More Disciples, Fewer Leaders, Please

As some of you are aware, Imbi has been producing a documentary on church leadership - a multi-year project. It is stuck, right now, in the editing stage - for which I am wholly to blame.

One of the final interviews for the doc (we have a few left to get) was earlier in November with Chris Wright.

One of the questions Imbi asked him was what he thought leadership training needed to look like in the 21st Century. His response hit us both between the eyes.

"I wouldn't start out with training leaders, I'd start out with making disciples." (Imbi's question begins @ 3:40 in this video.)

Yesterday, Scot McKnight pointed his faithful readers (of which I am one) at his response to the Slant 33 asked question, "What three books do you recommend on the subject of leadership development and why?"

I loved his response. Here's an excerpt,

...I want to put my idea on the line and see where it leads us. We have one leader, and his name is Jesus. I want to bang this home with a quotation from Jesus from Matthew 23, where he seems to be staring at the glow of leadership in the eyes of his disciples, and he does nothing short of deconstructing the glow:

But you are not to be called “Rabbi,” for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth “father,” for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. The greatest among you will be your servant. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

Instead of seeing myself as a leader, I see myself as a follower. Instead of plotting how to lead, I plot how to follow Jesus with others. Instead of seeing myself at the helm of some boat—and mine is small compared to many others—I see myself in the boat, with Jesus at the helm.

Now at the beginning of Scot's response he identifies what, for me, appears to be cognitive dissonance on his part.

I have a confession to offer: I neither look forward to reading nor do I even like leadership books. I’ve read a few, like Seth Godin’s Tribes and Nancy Beach’s Gifted to Lead. And, yes, I’ve read a few others, but I don’t like them and don’t get much out of them, and I say this as one whose pastor, Bill Hybels, is a leadership guru.

I would strongly suggest that Hybels is more than a leadership guru. He is probably one of the greatest proponents of CEO-style leadership in the Church - with influence on thousands of churches around the world. His Global Leadership Summit "exists to transform Christian Leaders around the world with an injection of vision, skill development, and inspiration for the sake of the local church." The GLS homepage proudly points to the Fast Company article about the event.

Fast Company says this about WC,

Evangelical Christianity proudly has no pope, and given its predilection for splintering, it can hardly be considered a single church. But if evangelicalism does have a global power center, it would have to be Willow Creek, thanks largely to the summit. According to cable-TV pioneer and venture philanthropist Bob Buford, who played a key role in the summit's development, "Willow Creek is the most influential Protestant church in the world -- one might even say the most influential church in the world save for the Vatican."

Fast Company describes the people who speak at the event,

The summit taps speakers from a wide range of fields: experienced executives like Welch and W.L. Gore CEO Terri Kelly; management theorists such as Collins and Marcus Buckingham (First, Break All the Rules); politicians including Tony Blair and Jimmy Carter; cultural leaders turned do-gooders like Bono and Four Weddings and a Funeral screenwriter Richard Curtis; and sports figures such as Tennessee Lady Vols basketball coach Pat Summitt.

A number of years ago, when I held the director of communications role in a megachurch, I was intimately involved in promoting and staging a simulcast of this event. I write this with a degree of understanding.

The GLS is not promoting leadership in the manner of that which Scot describes in his response at Slant33. Willow Creek promotes a CEO-leadership style that I believe is actually antithetical to what Scot articulates from Scripture.

The church is not a business. Nor do I believe that it should it be run as a one. It is not a top-down organization, yet that is actually what Willow Creek both models and promotes.

Scot nails it, in my not humble opinion, when he says this,

...leadership too often places the pastor or some person in the front and having others be guided (and following) that person, and that, I dare say, distorts the entire gospel. Jesus was willing to say that his followers didn’t have a rabbi of their own, didn’t have a human father in a position of ultimate authority, and they didn’t have an instructor who was their teacher. They had one rabbi and one instructor, and his name was Jesus, and he was Messiah. They had one father, and he was Creator of all. They were to see themselves as brothers, not leaders. That’s straight from the lips of Jesus. [Emphasis Added]

Which appears to put Scot at odds with his pastor, Bill Hybels. Or am I missing something?

Let me finish by returning to Chris Wright when he says, "I wouldn't start out with training leaders, I'd start out with making disciples."

How did Jesus make disciples - he lived with them for three years, through thick and thin, through their thick headedness and their moments of great clarity, through their closeness and their rejection of him. He didn't set up a training school for leaders, or preach from an elevated pulpit or bring in Roman business and political leaders to advise his disciples how to lead.

Jesus lived in the midst of his disciples and the impact of that still resonates. Globally.

UPDATE: Please read Doc Todd here and Alan Knox here.

UPDATE 2: My Toronto buddy, Darryl Dash responds with his post, Imagine There's No Leader - and Dave Fitch has a very good comment there. There's great conversation in the comments below, but you simply must read this one from Brad "FuturistGuy" Sargent.

ASIDE: Though not on exactly the same bent as this post, Chaplain Mike's "Disney-ization of Faith" fits well with this discussion. Particularly when he writes,

I could write a long book about all the examples of this across our land, from the many ways we market Jesus in books, music, and media, to the kistchy excess of the televangelists and the corporate “excellence” of the megachurches, to iconic monuments like the Crystal Cathedral. So much of it represents the “Magic Kingdom” mentality.

In the cartoon world of contemporary American evangelicalism, it’s all about bigger, better, and simpler. Help folks think their dreams can come true. Create “moments” for people in the congregation that they will never forget, that will “bless” families in safe and sanitized settings. Remove the messiness and reality of day to day life. Instead, put a sentimental, heart-tugging version of life up on the screen and make people feel it. Embrace the possibilities.

Evangelicalism has become “Disney-ized.”

Anyone for a "Spiritual Mini-Mall"

Perhaps it's just me, but this seems to REVEAL so much about the state of the evangelical church in the West.

Willow Creek, like many megachurches, looks less like a traditional steeple-and-people structure than a spiritual mini mall. It has a food court, a coffee shop that's clearly a Starbucks knockoff (complete with your choice of tall, grande, and venti), and a slate of ministries, events, and services comprehensive enough for a Christ-centered cruise ship. All of this telegraphs the message that the church is trying to meet present-day wants and needs. And it reflects the pragmatism that infuses the leadership summit, which Hybels says is meant "to mess with people's minds a little." [Some emphasis added]

And this quote is simply icing on the WC cake,

...Willow summit balances the secular yin with the Christ-centered yang.

It all just seems to bring this to mind. But. Again. Perhaps it's just me.

Confronting Idols & Making Disciples - Interview Excerpt with Chris Wright

For the past week this blog has seemed to be all Chris Wright, all the time. Not that there's anything wrong with that. :-)

This post is no different - featuring an excerpt from an interview we shot with him midweek.

Chris is one of the more gracious and yet, one of the most prophetic leaders that Imbi and I have ever met. Though tired from a week of meetings and teaching in Toronto, Chris sat down with Imbi for a 45 minute interview that covered some of what he shared at Lausanne 2010 in Cape Town, as well as his thoughts on what the church needs to raise up leaders in the 21st Century. 

In my not humble, but accurate opinion, this is more than worth five minutes of your time to watch. 

Confronting Idols & Making Disciples from Bill Kinnon on Vimeo. 

This video is also available on YouTube.

Imbi and I would like to thank Barry Parker and George Sumner for helping to make this happen. Both Barry and George are on the Canadian Board of Langham Partnership. (Once again, we shot in George's office @ Wycliffe College.) We would also like to thank Barbara Jenkins, Director of Admissions @ Wycliffe, who has helped with arranging a number of interviews along with Karen Baker-Bigauskas, Assistant to the Principal, who simply makes things happen.

Chris Wright's books that are pertinent to this video: The Mission of God and The Mission of God's People.